TPMK, A on Turn [line check]

[notcalebsheridan]

2/4 6-max, my first orbit... this is about a standard line that i've been taking.. sometimes I donk a bet on the flop if i'm OOP... please criticize my play (like all of my posts, this is not results based one way or the other)


Dealt to HERO[spadeQ heartJ]
HERO - Calls $2 [i've been overplaying hands the last day, especially preflop -coming in wayy too weak, so i have been limping QJ, i'm not sure if this is good]
MP - Folds
CO - Folds
BUTTON - Folds
SB - Folds
BB - Raises $2 to $4
HERO - Calls $2
*** FLOP *** [clubJ club4 spade8] (pot = $9 [4.5SB])
BB - Bets $2
HERO - Raises $4 to $4 [i think this is standard with such a draw heavy board?]
BB - Calls $2 [putting him on a weak hand here, low pair or draw]
*** TURN *** [diamondA] (pot = $17 [4.25BB])
BB - Bets $4
HERO - Calls $4 [getting 5:1, figured it was ok to draw for two pr/trips/catch a bluff]
*** RIVER *** [heartA] (pot = $25 [6.25BB])
BB - Bets $4
HERO - Calls $4 [i was planning on check/folding here without help, but the second ace came out making it a lot less likely he hit his ace and would be bluffing -is this ok thinking?]

I had my first 30BB+ downswing.. I played through it and lost another 30BB... not feeling real confident but I had amazing tables, I had two people at my table who would call 2bets with the idiot end of a gutshot (78 on TJx board, etc) unfortunetly the nine kept spiking ... add in two tilt hands where I overplayed draws and missed and i'm down 4 bets on the weekend... also -for whatever reason, i didn't get AA for a little over 1600 hands... then I got it 4 times in 100 hands and lost every time... yeah! variance! good thing for rakeback and bonuses (+50BB)

[Matt]

A few comments about your preflop play: Limping from under the gun with Q spades J hearts seems a bit loose. You have to loosen your calling standards in shorthanded games, but when you're under the gun you should play like you would play from early position at a full table. Q-Jo is a dangerous hand to play from early position. It's a hand that you would like to play for one bet only. In a full game, I will open-raise from middle and late position with this hand, hoping to drive out the other players. If there are callers and no raises, I'll limp along from late position.

It's also good to be in late position because Q-Jo is easily dominated by other hands. If you flop top pair, you can easily dump it if there is a bet and a raise in front of you. If you're in early position, you might get caught in the middle of a raising war. You don't have to worry about domination as much in a 6-max game, but you still don't want to pay more than one bet to see a flop--that is, unless you're the one doing the raising. I would open-raise from the cutoff or the button, but I would definitely muck the hand from under the gun. I'm not sure what I would do from middle position in a shorthanded game.

I need to think about this hand before commenting further. Perhaps Nima can share his thoughts since shorthanded play is his area of expertise.

[bluebayou]

A few comments about your preflop play: Limping from under the gun with Q spades J hearts seems a bit loose. You have to loosen your calling standards in shorthanded games, but when you're under the gun you should play like you would play from early position at a full table. Q-Jo is a dangerous hand to play from early position ....

i agree - J-Qo is dreadful played from that position ! i would never call the preflop raise from the bb.

after the flop ur in big trouble because u dont know how strong ur pair really is.

did u have any readings from the big blind ?

[i was planning on check/folding here without help, but the second ace came out making it a lot less likely he hit his ace and would be bluffing -is this ok thinking?]

no, its quite doubtful that bb was playing so far with a total zero hand. he have to fear a (higher) pair...




what did he show... kings, queens ?


blue

[notcalebsheridan]

I'm re-reading SSHE, so far i've found a couple preflop problem spots, including QJo, as seen here. Other problems include J9 and Q9 from middle position.. I loosened up a little bit too much for the games during the last 1,000 hands or so. I've been playing a 16/12, very tight NL game so I guess i'm trying to justify a splurge moving to limit. AJ is a losing hand for me, too. At some point over the weekend, i'll be reviewing my hands and seeing where I'm running into big trouble with my preflop holdings, as I'll have somewhat of a database made.

It's my first orbit and I have not gotten my HUD to display right with AP yet, so I have no stats or reads. I'll definetly agree QJ is a bad preflop call from UTG and is a leak that needs to be plugged. That said, is flop ok? I would be folding to almost every turn if I was 3-bet on the flop. Would you call this turn bet? Are you more inclined to call the river with a second ace out?

[Matt]

I'm re-reading SSHE, so far i've found a couple preflop problem spots, including QJo, as seen here. Other problems include J9 and Q9 from middle position.. I loosened up a little bit too much for the games during the last 1,000 hands or so. I've been playing a 16/12, very tight NL game so I guess i'm trying to justify a splurge moving to limit. AJ is a losing hand for me, too. At some point over the weekend, i'll be reviewing my hands and seeing where I'm running into big trouble with my preflop holdings, as I'll have somewhat of a database made.

Ed Miller's preflop recommendations assume that you're playing in a full, loose-passive game. Shorthanded games are rarely loose-passive. Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players has the best discussion of preflop play. That book contains the "Sklansky Hand Groupings" and explains which groups are playable under certain circumstances. J-9o and Q-9o are hands that I almost always throw away unless I think I can steal the blinds with them. If you're in a loose game and players have limped in before you, you can play J-9s. The same is true with small pocket pairs; if you're in middle position and everyone has folded to you, I would throw away most of them and open-raise with the good ones. If you're in a relatively tight game, you can open-raise with Q-9s from late-middle position if there's a good chance everyone will fold. I've stopped playing A-Jo and K-Qo from early position in aggressive games. Limp with these hands in passive games. If you have A-Js and K-Qs, you can raise from any position.

16/12 is about right for full limit games. My own stats are 15/10, with a postflop aggression factor of about 2.5. Some people have good results playing slightly looser. For shorthanded games, you should switch to semi-loose/aggressive mode, playing about 23% of your hands with a lot of open-raising and three-betting--especially with hands that can win unimproved like aces and pocket pairs. You also need to defend your blinds more, particularly in the big blind. This means calling steal raises from loose-aggressive players with some pretty ugly stuff like Q-8o, a hand you would almost never call with in a full game. Ed Miller's DVD set, Expert Hold'em, has a lot of good advice about preflop play in shorthanded games.

Your play on the flop seems fine to me. I'm not sure about the turn and river. Your opponent may have put you on a free-card raise and decided to bet out again when a blank fell on the turn. Or perhaps he wanted to take advantage of a scare card. If that ace had helped him he may have gone for a check-raise. I would have raised again on the turn and folded to a reraise. If the opponent calls the raise and bets again on the river, I would make a crying call. If he calls the raise and checks the river, I would take a free showdown. I have no idea if that's the correct play; that's just my gut reaction. I know this isn't a results-oriented post, but I'm still curious to know what happened. My guess is that the ace didn't help him.

[notcalebsheridan]

BB - Shows [heart10 heart6]

I get really suspicious on donked turn bets. He is giving up so much money by not check/raising most of the time. I try to keep notes on people's turn moves (i have a few on someone who donks every time with improved hands/strong hands and similar tendencies) I didn't have notes on this guy and I thought a call-down was OK, since it would help me in the future added with all the missed draws.

[Matt]

BB - Shows [heart10 heart6]

I get really suspicious on donked turn bets. He is giving up so much money by not check/raising most of the time. I try to keep notes on people's turn moves (i have a few on someone who donks every time with improved hands/strong hands and similar tendencies) I didn't have notes on this guy and I thought a call-down was OK, since it would help me in the future added with all the missed draws.

Wow, that's insane. There seem to be a lot of wild players in shorthanded games. I think calling him down was a reasonable strategy. If you had raised on the turn and folded to a re-raise, you would have folded the better hand. When you're playing with maniacs, it's often right to let them bet the hand for you.

[Steve-O]

Short-handed limit you need to be raising if you are first in. QJo is a hand I would sometimes open with in this situation. Opening UTG 6 handed is like opening from MP in full ring, I would open raise your hand about 25% of the time, and toss it in the muck the other 75%.

AS PLAYED........ I like your line on the flop. With no info on BB I would put him on AQ/AK/99/TT, maybe a draw.

Once he bets into you on the turn I would fold. calling is bad, raising is an option if you feel he doesn't have an Ace. You're basically drawing to a 2 outer (5 at the most) Lets meet 1/2 way and say you have 4 outs: you would need about 10 to 1 odds to continue on with this hand.