Legislation

[notcalebsheridan]

2+2 has a sub-forum about the laws in congress concerning online gaming.

I think this would be a good add to your main site, as online poker for the US could easily be ended mid-week, and, there are no doubt lots of people looking for a basic information page

As I understand it, senator Frist is trying to add language (pork barrel, i believe is the term) to ban it to a bill that is going to easily pass nearly unanimously -after his original bill has failed to pass congress atleast one time.

[Nima]

I had signed up for Victor Chandler Poker.

They emailed me last week to take all the money in my account out as they will close all American accounts (with American address) by this week.


It is very possible for online poker to end soon. But the online poker websites will find some way around as its a huge market.

Or U.S will start taxing them and everyone will live happily.


Cheers,
Nima

[notcalebsheridan]

Looks like it's over.

A bill just went though, it should be signed into law mid-week. Anyway, it bans funding to onling gaming sites. There is no specific wording about poker, but, I imagine that even if poker isn't banned, then the games are going to be so dry it won't be worth playing. The recreational players who "donate" won't be putting in money once this is in Monday's news.

I have taken my bankroll out of all sites and I'm waiting to get it into my bank account/cash as soon as possible -there is no way that I will be trusting my money with any site at the moment.

I can't say that I suggest you do the same, but I think it's important to look into and make a good decision for yourself. In my opinion, gaming and gaming related sites have no reason to give you your money or not cheat you -sooner than later, 75%+ of their players will be gone and the games will dry up so much that many of the players currently killing the games will turn into losers. With all of that loss of business, why not just keep money? Their business will be illegal for most of their players shortly, and the rest of the players will give it up soon thereafter. For many online gaming venue owners (such as Calvin Ayre), they are already wanted men in the US. With no reputation to uphold, these big sites have nothing to lose if the owners do not live in the US.

It's a real shame this is happening -as someone who frequently plays a minimum of 2 hours a day, more or less "professionally" I'm almost depressed. Poker has enabled me to do a lot of things for myself -school, living expenses, car, savings, etc. I wish this wasn't happening quite like this -as I saw myself using poker to keep myself from working or going into debt during school. Unfortunetly I probably can only support myself from savings for less than one year and I won't be able to do or buy some things I was looking forward to.

Good luck to all of you -this is the end of my poker career. It was a fun ride, I wish it didn't end today.

[Nima]

http://www.gambling911.com/Party-Gaming-Poker-Stars-100206.html


Online poker is almost gone for us, the US players.


However, it apparently takes a year before actions are taken.

Either way, as Caleb said, I have pulled my money out too.



Cheers,
Nima


Ps. This calls for more house games.

[notcalebsheridan]

There have been some people saying that gambling911 isn't a great source of information and frequently has incorrect info. That said, I believe most sites are going to exit the market, as reported.

So far WPEX (world poker exchange -rakefree) has stated that it will keep allowing US players. I don't know how they plan to credit player's accounts, as Neteller has altered their TOC's and most other current payment sites are shutting down US accounts.

I think it will take about a month to figure out what the long-term effects will be. But it may be wise to put a small portion of your BR into WPEX to hopefully have a backup plan. The act of playing poker will not be illegal, but it will be extremely hard to get money onto and off of poker sites. Banks have stated that they can't do the impossible but will work within reason to stop fund transfers for gambling. I don't see how neteller won't be banned, even though they are allowing those with US addresses keep accounts open. This is all going to happen over the next 270 days, as a council for enforcement is created and helps banks set new regulations.

I think it is extremely wise to get as much money from poker sites into your hands (banks or cash) as quickly as possible. I personally have a neteller ATM card that I got today. I plan on playing through this (assuming cashing out to neteller (against their TOCs) won't be prosecuted). Hopefully a few "renegade" sites will allow US players to keep playing over the next few months -and the fact that one is rake-free definetly helps. (Breaking even at WPEX would be as profitable if not more profitable than killing games at other sites) This way, i'll be able to cash out directly from an ATM and skip the bank (where my transaction may be blocked). At this point I wish I had an account on a few European skins :(

Everything hinges on what PokerStars and FullTilt (the main poker-only sites) decide on wednesday (When the bill will be signed into law). If these monsters decide to abandon ship, who knows what will happen.

I do agree, home games will be good -but I can't imagine making even 1/10 as much as I do now which will be a problem for my bills after a few months

[Nima]

I know what you mean.

This is huge. No one thought it would happen so fast.

Hopefuly, at least one or two websites stay open.

I also think it would be close to impossible to deposit money into accounts if bank dont want to allow it. It is similar to terrorism funding. They are experienced in stopping international payments and I am sure they can stop payments to any online gambling website.

I'm also sure they tried behind the scenes to stop the bill. But I wouldnt be surprised if the big boys in Washington DC (and Vegas) had already made their minds up.


Vegas makes a lot of money from sport betting. and the traffic was going away to the online websites. Now people will go the old fashion way.


This will only add more crime. Illegal house games will increase, illegal sport betting will increase too.

They should have tried to tax it somehow and use the money for something useful.

Anyways, go vote in November and kick republicans out.


Cheers,
Nima

[Matt]

I'm both depressed and infuriated. Bill Frist plans on running for president in 2008, and this is one way of currying favor with the religious right. I didn't like him before he managed to get this bill passed (in a very sneaky way, I might add), but I fucking hate him now. Unfortunately, most Democrats are too spineless to take a stand on this issue. It would make much more sense to legalize, regulate, and tax online gaming just like every other Western democracy has done.

I'm afraid this is going to ruin poker in general. So many people play in the World Series of Poker by winning their seats online. I don't like house games, so I'm really fucked. I'll only be able to play once a year when I visit Vegas and I'll be so out of pratice that I won't be able to win much. I also have no chance to learn Omaha/8 and Stud at the microlimits. The Golden Age of poker is about to be over.

[notcalebsheridan]

I'm both depressed and infuriated. Bill Frist plans on running for president in 2008, and this is one way of currying favor with the religious right. I didn't like him before he managed to get this bill passed (in a very sneaky way, I might add), but I fucking hate him now. Unfortunately, most Democrats are too spineless to take a stand on this issue. It would make much more sense to legalize, regulate, and tax online gaming just like every other Western democracy has done.

I'm afraid this is going to ruin poker in general. So many people play in the World Series of Poker by winning their seats online. I don't like house games, so I'm really fucked. I'll only be able to play once a year when I visit Vegas and I'll be so out of pratice that I won't be able to win much. I also have no chance to learn Omaha/8 and Stud at the microlimits. The Golden Age of poker is about to be over.

i agree 100%. I really don't think all is lost and I hope that you keep money on FTP until they make a statement. I think that atleast a few poker-only sites will stay open though this. I also believe that, as long as you don't go broke, the games will be funded by european players (especially omaha games, where i have noticed a majority european fish)

This bill, as I understand it, only prevents you from depositing, not playing. I am keeping very small rolls on neteller and pokerstars for the moment. I have a nice rakeback payment which I plan to keep on FTP. If the games dry up too much and I believe i'm -EV, i will stop playing right away. Until that day comes, I am going to try to make as much as possible with <$500 bankrolls.

I think WPEX opens up a huge possibility for making a living off the games again. Really, you just have to break even and make all your money off the rake. You can play a 16/5 game and make the same amount as a 45/40 player, which means it is grossly +EV to set-mine NL games -and I plan to. I think you need to watch out for players you see a lot (who will have notes on you) and change your play (maybe every 2-3 days). I will be opening an account and starting another $500 BR there.

As far as I can tell, there are a lot of "outs" we as poker players have right now. WTO, playing is still going to be legal, new regulation/amendments, etc... There is some long-shot talk about possibly having Harrah's/other casinos open up online casinos and lobby for an amendment... This would definetly work and make a ridiculously high return for them... It's a complete rumor/possibly made up, but it's a ray of hope

I understand your feelings of depression and frustration. I didn't think the effect would be so huge in such a short period of time, but, reading 2p2 and other sites, i definetly do not think all is lost. Give this a month and keep a little bit of your roll on these sites (I don't think >20% is a wise move -i still think there are some decent odds of a big site [who is not publicly traded] hitting and running)

Lee Jones has been posting around different boards and I can't tell what is going to happen based on what he's said. He seems optomistic but this could just be so as not to scare players.

Also, if you have money at any OnGame site, i think you need to get it off ASAP. Over the past few years there has been numerous complaints about bounced checks, 3 month withdraws, etc... I wouldn't be surprised if you get screwed by them.

Currently I have funds in Neteller and PS. I plan to have money going into FTP and WPEX. If nothing changes over the next month, I will keep money there. That's my plan and I think it's a decent one, I am not keeping more money on the sites than I can afford to have stolen, however. I think this is an obvious "better safe than sorry" during this rocky time (esp when dealing with 'private' companies). So far, WPEX and True Poker have come out saying that they will continue to offer games. So there are atleast two sites we can play at. Sadly there is low traffic, so we'll see if they become more +EV. I'm sure with a neteller ATM card and good bankroll management you can still make money off europeans/mediocre americans (and still get it out)

[notcalebsheridan]

i cashed out of stars today, there is a lot of chatter about them leaving the industry (i have no idea if it's true at all) anyway, it seems resonable.

So far WPEX, AP, FTP, and UB have said they will stay in the game. I think I am going to be re-designing my plan and throwing money in one of these: WPEX/AP/FTP.

AP offers 28%RB and large monthly bonuses that do not effect MGR.
FTP offers 27% rakeback and mediocre bonuses that come out of MGR.
WPEX offers 100% rakeback and no bonuses, with poor games.

I have heard people saying that $10-20/hour is attainable at AP with rakeback/bonuses, playing a few tables of $1/$2 limit HE... (According to WPEX calculator, $10/hour is what 1/2 6-max would pay in rake) This is a rather large reduction for me, but still atleast twice as much as I could find working a part-time job. I don't think I'd be able to beat the NL games once they are populated with all the knowledgable US players. I'm hoping I can beat 1/2 and maybe 2/4... I know next to nothing about limit but I have a positive winrate over ~20k limit hands. Learning a new game would be a good challenge and make grinding super low limits a little more bearable.

I decided to take atleast the week off, for real this time.. Hopefully this bill gets signed tomorrow and everything gets sorted out by the weekend and I can figure out what to do at that point.

Just for everyone's benifit, AP offers great bonuses and some good features, including 200BB buy-ins (I can imagine this being very, very profitable vs fish in NL games), but be sure to sign up through a rakeback site -mine. (http://www.thisisthenuts.com/form.html?refcode=3363)

[Matt]

I've cashed out from Party Poker, although I wasn't planning to stay there anyway. I still have some money in Full Tilt. I'm going to take some time off and see what happens. If I decide to continue playing, I'm wondering how I will be able to deposit and withdraw funds. Has Neteller made any statements about online poker? I know they have changed their terms of use, but it's my understanding that they made these changes before the new bill passed.

[Matt]

Just found Neteller's official statement. It's very tentative.

"On Friday 29 September 2006, the US Congress passed legislation which includes certain provisions to prohibit unlawful internet gambling through the restriction of payments to such sites.

"The Bill states that there will be a period of up to 9 months for the US regulators to prescribe regulations requiring each designated payment system and all participants therein to identify and block or otherwise prevent or prohibit restricted transactions.

"It is currently unclear how NETELLER, a European company, with no assets, presence or employees in the US, would be affected by this bill. Once the regulations have been written, NETELLER will have a clearer view of which companies are affected, how those companies will be expected to comply, and any possible resulting impact on NETELLER and its US facing business.

"NETELLER continues to operate its business as normal.

"Over 3 million customers in 160 countries trust NETELLER to transfer over $7 billion each year. NETELLER (UK) Limited is authorised and regulated in the United Kingdom by the Financial Services Authority and listed on the AIM market of the London Stock Exchange. To protect its customers’ money, all deposited, in-transit, and un-cleared funds are held in Trust Accounts."

http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate.htm

[Matt]

Here's a bit of good news: It seems that the new Gambling Prohibition Act violates World Trade Organization rules (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_news/news_story/1435?class=PokerNews). That doesn't mean much, though. The U.S. has a history of violating international laws. This is especially true of the Bush administration, with its illegal war on Iraq and its hideous disregard for the Geneva Conventions. Still, this news gives us an additional "out," so to speak.

I also want to clarify my earlier remarks about Democrats being spineless. In my opinion, this is generally true, but there are some notable exceptions including Representatives Barney Frank (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-UpI1Ct-dg) and Shelley Berkley (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb1pzayqPaI).

Even some Republicans have opposed this legislation. Senator John Warner refused to add Frist's bill to the must-pass Defense legislation. Representative Ron Paul, who is really more of a Libertarian, has also voiced his dissent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b7_h_OyTI0). Although I disagree with most aspects of the Republican agenda, I commend these two Congressmen for standing up to Bill Frist.

Here are some satirical pieces about the Anti-Online Gaming Act, one from the Daily Show and another from David Letterman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtqhhy4sx-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpj5cQSKM44

Keep checking Cardplayer.com and 2+2 for more news about this bill. 2+2 has a collection of links to various news stories concerning online gaming: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=7534232&an=0&page=0#Post7534232.

Keep your fingers crossed,
Matt

[Nima]

It doesnt seem like it affects too much.


Players will still be able to play and send checks. As banks have said they can not monitor checks (for privacy and other reasons).

There are only two problems:

First I dont know why the hell Party Poker would clsoe US accounts. They can still make alot of money from us.

Second, there will be less casual(fish) players online.

Third, fuck party poker anyways.

Fourth, this is like when they banned smokin marijuana in U.S. They made it illegal and people stopped smoking. They will eventualy make gambling fully illegal and everyone will stop gambling.


Cheers,
Nima

[Nima]

By the way.


This is shameful for me. I have less posts than Matt.

Keep it up,
Nima

[Matt]

Remember when I said that Bill Frist is trying to curry favor with the religious right? Here's the proof: http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=24127. What a douchebag.

[notcalebsheridan]

Yeah, That article is a little ridiculous. But it really doesn't sound that bad for poker, I think once the elections are over, everything will be fine. It seems like frist passed this law solely to appeal to family interests for pre-election popularity with southern baptists

[Nima]

I just got an email from Firepay stating that they will not allow transfering money to gambling websites.

Cheers,
Nima

[Nima]

PokerRoom.com is no going to accept deposits from U.S Accounts anymore either. I just got an email from them.


Cheers,
Nima

[Nima]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6090358.stm

[nowayinthe]

It is very possible for online poker to end soon. But the online poker websites will find some way around as its a huge market.
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