Short Handed Limit Quiz # 2

[Nima]

Refer to above question and discuss below.

[Matt]

I voted for option #2, "Raise with A6 and small pairs, fold the small suited connector." I'm assuming that you're talking about a blind-steal situation; the question isn't very clear about your position or how the players in front of you have acted. I'm also assuming that this is a six-handed game.

In a shorthanded game, I'll raise with any playable hand if I'm first to enter the pot. A-6 and small pairs are certainly playable from late position. I don't care if the blinds are loose; I want to make them pay to see a flop with trash. Even if one or both blinds call a raise, A-6 and small pairs can easily win without improving. You just have to know when to let these hands go based on the texture of the flop and your opponents' post-flop actions.

You can play small/medium suited connectors, but you should still raise if you're going to play them. I'm inclined to fold them though. Drawing hands don't do as well in shorthanded games and they will need to improve to win.

[Nima]

You should just call with all of them.

As Matt said, this is a steal situation. However, one of the main point of the "Steal Move" is so that the blinds fold before the flop.

Here they will not (because they are too loose). And your Ace flops only about one out of every 5 times and without the ace you cant really call on a rag flop as the blinds can have anything.

THe same with the other two hands.


I'll explain more if more members are interested,

Cheers,
Nima

[Matt]

I think we mean different things when we use the term "steal raise." I'm using "steal raise" is a broader sense--that is, any open-raise from the cutoff or button. By this definition, open-raising with aces is a steal raise. A pure steal raise is when you open with a much weaker hand like 5-7o; this play can work in a tighter game, but I wouldn't try it in a loose or shorthanded game. Small pocket pairs and offsuit aces are a different matter. When you open-raise with those hands, you aren't just trying to steal. It would be nice if your opponents folded, but your hand still has value if they call. Any of these hands can win unimproved, especially the pocket pairs. A-6o is less likely to win at the showdown, but raising still has some advantages. Even aggressive opponents are more likely to check to you on the flop, probably with the intention of check-raising. If that's the case, you can take a free card which might give you the best hand. Besides, you will flop a pair or better about a third of the time; an ace would be ideal, but even a pair of sixes could win the hand for you. It's my understanding that open-limping is rarely correct in a shorthanded game. Even in full games, it's almost never correct to open-limp from late position. I don't see why it should be any different in this situation.

[Nima]

I'm quoting the following from "Holdem Poker for Advanced Player" by David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth:

"Suppose you raise with A6 and get two calls. Unless the flop contains an Ace your hands is not worth much, and youwill flop an ace only about one time in five.

Though you will flop a 6 one time in five, it might not win, and an Ace high will win less often still. Thus you probably dont want to commit too much money to the pot before the flop.

Another reason to just call before the flop is that you make it more likely that you will steal the pot if they both check on the flop. You should always bet if they do check in this situation."

[Matt]

It's hard to argue with Sklansky and Malmuth, but I know there has been a lot of controversy about their shorthanded advice. It's been a while since I've read the shorthanded section of HPFAP. If I remember correctly, this section deals mostly with heads-up and three-handed play. Sklansky and Malmuth also assume that your opponents play reasonably well after the flop. In today's games, the competition tends to play very poorly.

There is a big difference between three-handed and six-handed play. King Yao's book Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker has two great chapters on shorthanded games; Mason Malmuth has said that these chapters "are some of the best material currently published in this area.” Yao agrees that limping on the button may be correct in a three-handed game. This is because the blinds are right to play many more hands: "In a three-handed game the blinds are constantly pounded with pre-Flop raises. Calling a raise in the blinds is automatic with any half-decent hand" (256).

However, Yao also writes, "In a game with six or fewer players, it is rarely correct to limp into the pot if no one else is in the pot yet. Any hand that is playable should be raisable if no other player has entered the pot" (254). This does not contradict Sklansky and Malmuth's advice. The "raise or fold" rule applies to a completely different situation. I'm not saying you should always open-raise in a shorthanded game. Mixing up your play is important. Still, I think that open-raising with a playable hand is the right move most of the time.