What's my mistake?

[Matt]

This is a hand I played in a Limit Hold'em cash game. I posted it in this forum because it illustrates an important difference between Limit and No-Limit play. I also wanted to trick NL players into reading it. :D

Although I won a nice pot, I made a mistake in this hand. Can you identify it? Think about it before you read any of the other responses. Also think about how the proper strategy for this hand would differ from proper strategy in NL Hold'em.

Here is the hand. All villians are loose. Villian #3 (UTG+2) is aggressive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/ad.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/as.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 raises, 4 folds, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/jc.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/6h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/8c.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/4d.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds.

River: (11.50 BB) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/8h.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has 9h Jh (two pair, jacks and eights).
Hero has Ad As (two pair, aces and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.50 BB.

[Nima]

It's tricky. HAHA

I would have played it like above. However after thinking about it, I can only come up with one other play. Perhaps check on the turn and induce a bluff on the river.

however if you had done that and the second 8 had come, I would not have raised (the original reason why I would have checked the turn).


If there was more than one other player, I would have checked the river. but since it was the UTG player I would not have been too scared of him on the river for the following three reasons:

1- He called preflop raises. So he doesnt have 8-9 or 7-8. He called from the first position and then two raises.

2- He called a raise from you on the turn where there was a chance of another raise from the the player to his right. So he would not have stayed with an 8 alone. He had the Jack. (for the following reason he didnt have a set either)

3- He didnt have a set because: There was flush draw and straight draw on the board, plus he knew that you(Matt) had overpair (at least he should have known) so a higher than Jack card on the river would have lost him his pot too if he had a set. Therefore he would hvae three bet you on the turn which he didnt.

Again, depending on what i know about the player i Might have checked the river, but other than that, i would have played it the same.

Any comments?


Cheers,
nima

[Matt]

That's not quite what I had in mind. I think checking the turn against two opponents would be a mistake, especially if one of them was on a flush draw; I wouldn't want to give them a free card.

You are right that betting on the river was a questionable play. I definitely would have checked against two players. I put my opponent on either a weak Jack (which he had) or a flush draw. If he had a flush draw, he probably would not have called a river bet; therefore, I would have gained nothing with my bet. I also risked a check-raise if he had made trips on the river. Only a hand like J-9, or perhaps a medium pocket pair, would have called my river bet. Any other hand would fold or check-raise, possibly making my bet a negative expectation play. However, because this player was loose, I knew he would call with a wide range of hands.

I think betting on the end would be a wrong move in a NL game. A check-raise in NL can be much more devastating than in a Limit game. In that case, I think taking a free showdown is the better move. I could be wrong about that. Of course, a lot depends on your opponent.

I think my main mistake in this hand is much more subtle. It's a mistake in a Limit game, but a correct play in a No-Limit or Pot-Limit situation. I'll say more about that later. I'm hoping some other players will respond before I reveal my thoughts.

[Nima]

I still dont see the mistake.


I dont care about other members posting about this. lol

Tell me what you think the mistake is.


Nima,

[Matt]

Haha. I'll tell you in person. Here's a hint though: It's an idea that comes from Ed Miller's Small Stakes Hold'em. Dan Harrington also mentions it in Harrington on Hold'em: Volume I.

[notcalebsheridan]

i think what you're getting at is to flat call the flop and raise the turn

maybe one of the late position callers would raise if you just call there. But with so many people in the pot you aren't denying anyone odds either way

[Matt]

I'm going to withhold any further comments until this thread gets more posts, which I hope will happen soon (if at all).

[MaZiYi]

The only thing i would have done differently is check the river...

[Matt]

Caleb answered correctly. Because the pot is large, a raise cannot protect my hand. Even with the raise, the UTG player is getting 8-1 pot odds, more than enough to call with a weak flush draw. The better play is to raise on fourth street if the turn card is a blank. Even then, a flush draw would have sufficient odds to draw. However, you're not just raising to punish draws. You're also raising for value.

I don't think betting the river was a mistake. I would have checked against a tight player. It's okay to bet marginal hands against loose players, even when a scare card comes. I knew that my opponent would call with any jack and possibly a weaker hand like a pair of sixes or a counterfeited two pair.

In NL it's much easier to protect your hand. It can be costly when your opponents call without sufficient odds, but in the long run you will win money from their mistakes. You can also bet marginal hands against fishy players in NL games. In this particular case, I would have checked when the board paired. Otherwise, I would have value bet my aces. David Sklansky and Ed Miller discuss this concept in No-Limit Hold'em: Theory and Practice. I expect to see more about this subject in 2+2's upcoming small-stakes NL book.