A Frustrating Tournament Hand

[Matt]

Early in a multi-table NL Hold'em tournament:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t60 (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero (t5130)
UTG (t3111)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t4645)
MP1 (t6335)
MP2 (t3520)
MP3 (t1950)
CO (t5395)
Button (t2760)
SB (t2460)

Preflop: Hero is BB with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/td.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/th.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t60, 4 folds, Button calls t60, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t240) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/3h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/8h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/ts.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t160, UTG+2 folds, Button calls t160, SB folds.

Turn: (t560) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/ad.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t360, Button calls t360.

River: (t1280) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/kc.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t600, Button calls [t2180] , Hero calls t1580.

Final Pot: t3460

Results in white below:
Hero has Td Th (three of a kind, tens).
Button has Qs Jh (straight, ace high).
Outcome: Button wins t3460.

Here is my thought process as I was playing the hand:

I didn't raise with TT for the following reasons: I was out of position; I didn't want to make the pot too big so I could potentially win the pot with a modest bet (if the flop was safe); if I were to hit a set my hand would be well-disguised; and finally, my raise probably wouldn't have knocked anyone out.

On the flop, I bet 2/3 of the pot to protect my hand from any flush draws. Same deal with the turn. On the river, I felt that my set was safe. My opponent could have moved all-in with a number of hands: e.g., A-3 or a smaller set. I considered the possibility that he might have Q-J. However, I didn't think he would have called my bet on that flop with only overcards and a gutshot straight draw (unless, of course, he had Q-J of hearts). Plus, the pot odds seemed to dictate a call. After the hand, someone remarked that I should have moved all-in on the turn. Of course, I didn't respond, as I don't talk strategy at the table. I wanted to bet an amount that my opponent would incorrectly call.

How would you have played the hand?

[Nima]

Once he called your bet on the flop I would have put him on flush draw (just like yourself). But on the turn I would have bet harder. More than the pot. One other bet could be a little over half of his stack (if he had more money in front of him than in the pot)

You have to consider when playing online, players dont have a feeling of the amount they raise or call, that's why in smaller blind (or small buy in tournaments) in NL games online, betting 3 times the big blind doesnt do what it's supposed to most of the time.

Again, player's mistakes is what pays you out in long run.

Cheers,
Nima

[Matt]

I've been thinking about this hand a lot. You're exactly right about the calling standards of loose players. That's partly why I didn't raise before the flop. With three opponents and bad position, I would have had to raise substantially more than three times the big blind. Even that might not have driven anyone out. On the turn, I probably should have made a pot-sized bet, perhaps between 500 and 600 chips or more. I still think moving all-in would have been a wrong move; I wanted to punish any draws while still getting action on my set. Perhaps the biggest mistake I made was assuming that my opponent was thinking rationally. Loose players can be extremely hard to read.

Here's another thing that's been running through my mind: My opponent's call on the flop was marginal at best. He had a gutshot straight draw and two overcards, but he could not reasonably count the overcards as full outs since catching a jack or queen might not make the best hand. The gutshot gave him four additional outs, although only three of those cards would give him the nuts since the nine of hearts would put three to a flush on the board. If we devalue the overcards and the nine of hearts, we might say that his hand had about six outs. (Of course, we know that his hand had only four outs, but I want to examine the situation from his perspective.) With six outs, the odds of making a hand on the next card are about 7-1 against. The pot was only laying 2.5-1 odds, but one could possibly make a case for a call due to high implied odds. Still, I think the call was a mistake, even though it worked for him in this particular situation.

On the turn, my opponent picked up a double-gutshot straight draw, which increased his number of outs from four to eight. In fact, I think his double-gutshot draw was stronger than a flush draw would have been for the following reasons: the double-gutshot draw was much less obvious than the flush draw and therefore much more likely to get paid off if it hit. Based on my betting, my opponent could reasonably assume that I was not on a draw. My flop bet might have looked like a semi-bluff. On the turn, though, it was probably obvious that I was trying to protect a vulnerable hand. Thus, he would be correct to believe that all eight straight cards were clean outs. At that point, the odds against making a straight were about 5-1. The pot was laying him 2.5-1 odds, but his implied odds made the call worthwhile.

I doubt any of this actually occurred to my opponent, but a good player might have thought about the hand in this way. By not betting more on the turn, I allowed my opponent to (unintentionally) play the hand correctly.

I hope this makes sense and I would appreciate any comments.

-Matt

[Nima]

You are right. Your oponent never thought any of what you mentioned.

I think he thought that you were trying to buy the pot with a bluff and not only his straight would have been good, also his over cards would have been good if hit (I dont think the king made him re-think anything).

However, like I said earlier, I think you should have bet more on the turn. Not all-in. But perhaps a little over the pot size. The pot was already big enough that you should have rathered (at least I think so) to win the pot right there rather than taking chances.

On another note, In a cash game (even No Limit), I'd say not to raise the pot size (rather make a sucker bet). Because in a cash game that player wil lose substantialy more in long run and even if he sucks out, you will have more chances to win your money back.

However, in a tournament a big hit to your stack (or a big pot that could have won), makes a lot of difference and gives you a huge advantage. So while the odds were with you to make more money on that pot by betting small, I think you should have tried to win the pot right there.

Because you put him (and I did the same thing) on a flush draw rather than the queen. Flush draw players, online, tend to call even large bets on the flop but fold on the turn if they dont hit and the bet is fairly large.

Cheers,
Nima

[MaZiYi]

Did he have QJ??

I think I would have definetely gone all in on the turn. But I like to do that and it costs you if they call with a straight and flush draw and hit. I doubt he would have AA and if he did oh well right?

Playing live games for low limits and the bar games, the style i have been using is just pushing and you will be surprised by the hands that call...

But they were probably "just tired, and wanted to leave" anyways...

BRENT

[Matt]

He had Q-J with the jack of hearts. When he went all-in, I thought he might have Q-J, but he could also have moved in with 8-8, 3-3, A-x of hearts, a busted flush draw, or some other hand. I didn't put him on A-A or K-K, because he most likely would have raised before the flop with either of those hands. A-10 was a possibily but unlikely since three tens and one ace were already accounted for; that would leave him with only three possible combinations for that hand.

By the way, you can see the results by right-clicking the background and dragging it over the section that says "Results in white below." For some reason, the hand converter likes to hide the showdown. I will add this information to the "Guidelines for Posting Hand Histories" thread.

[MaZiYi]

that guy was a major donk

F poker look at this hand if i can get it...